Billion Dollar Growth with Vineet Mehra | Unlocked with Michelle Delamor

00:00:00: Today's guest truly embodies the word growth.

00:00:03: Over the

00:00:03: last two decades, Benit Mera has helped some of the biggest brands in the world grow from Procter & Gamble to Johnson and Johnson where he oversaw a four billion dollar marketing budget!

00:00:17: In this conversation, we talk about the biggest career risk he ever took.

00:00:21: His philosophy on leadership and we get real tactical around the economics of growing a new brand all through the lens of one of the most brilliant marketing and growth leaders.

00:00:32: Let's get into it Young founders entrepreneurs who have products.

00:00:36: How should they be thinking?

00:00:37: About the economics?

00:00:38: I like us We're really geeking out now.

00:00:40: when you can create positive brand platform, you can really create a movement.

00:00:45: Chime!

00:00:45: Fifty percent of our acquisitions come from organic growth they don't.

00:00:54: Vinnie I am so excited to have this conversation with you today

00:00:59: for

00:00:59: quite a few reasons.

00:01:01: You know, you've had one of the most fascinating career trajectories as A marketing leader.

00:01:08: now is a chief growth officer For me.

00:01:10: This conversation Is so fascinating because we have founders and entrepreneurs people that are building things And marketing has come up at something pretty big source spot, a place of like you know really wanting to understand more.

00:01:23: how can I understand this?

00:01:24: How can i master this?

00:01:25: but also how can i grow sustainably and i think that you have some of that knowledge.

00:01:29: That is so valuable to this audience as listening!

00:01:32: So thank you for being here.

00:01:33: it's gonna be a great conversation.

00:01:35: I look forward to it and uh... Also just congratulations on all your success.

00:01:39: It's amazing to see the show take off the way it is and most importantly, The People You're Helping.

00:01:43: It must be so rewarding to feel that and experience that glad to be a part of it

00:01:49: at China.

00:01:50: Thank you!

00:01:50: Thank you so much.

00:01:51: Yeah I know you guys have been such champions of entrepreneurs in this show.

00:01:55: we appreciate it so much.

00:01:56: its beautiful partnership were very grateful excited about.

00:02:02: let's start with your personal journey a very decorated, a very celebrated marketing leader.

00:02:13: And you have this incredible kind of career that everyone from the outside looks at.

00:02:18: but I'd be really curious about The Journey That it took to get here.

00:02:21: What are some of the ups and downs and challenges To even get to This point?

00:02:27: Yeah well You know i think All Of Us To Some Degree Are Shaped By Our Childhood How We Grew Up Where we Came From And I'm no different, and a lot of it is luck.

00:02:43: Some good choices... Yeah!

00:02:45: ...and some are just being at the right place in time.

00:02:50: In my first generation Indian kid when I was pretty young It was quite an experience because we moved to a place where there were not a lot of people that looked like me.

00:03:12: My parents didn't really totally understand how to navigate the environment, and so I was kind of left on my own to figure things out.

00:03:19: You know if this is a cliche but it's true If you're the son or daughter first generation immigrant from India what they know as couple thing become doctor Become lawyer Or becoming engineer.

00:03:31: And none those things suited me.

00:03:34: And I actually got a little bit lucky in grade eleven.

00:03:37: In my high school, we had this one teacher named Mr.

00:03:40: Zuley who...I still remember to this day and you know i still give him back everything he gave me..and he ran a marketing class which is really rare in high schools back then.

00:03:50: Super

00:03:51: hand!

00:03:51: I didn't even have that

00:03:52: at my High School all the time.

00:03:53: Yeah it was just random-this is luck right?

00:03:55: This where our luck plays into it.

00:03:56: He's even more lucky with an ex proctoring gamble kind of marketing guy that decided to become a teacher.

00:04:05: And he saw I really took a liking to his course, so just naturally loved it and one day talked me little bit about P&G told what this company is.

00:04:16: my parents didn't even know...I had no one guiding me..no mentors nothing!

00:04:21: This one guy put this one career path on my radar.

00:04:26: And you know, the rest is kind of history.

00:04:28: I got obsessed with P&G and read all these books... ...I read the History Of The Company.

00:04:33: Then when you go to choose university that you applied too in Canada.. ..I went and looked at like the stats where P&J hired from the most.

00:04:42: And i just got obsessed!

00:04:44: And uh- I went to this school called Wilfrid Laurier In Canada.

00:04:49: They're a big P& G School And I've gotten summer internship for my first sort year.

00:04:56: And in the late nineties, when you're starting your career.

00:04:58: The way...the place he went to learn marketing was procuring it like that was the Academy Place and You know That's how It all got started.

00:05:06: I have a little bit of luck then A Little Bit of persistence and dedication and uh..you make things happen and that kind Of Started that first chapter of my career.

00:05:16: um you know, to now get into the career chapters.

00:05:20: My first chapter was this CPG careers these big companies.

00:05:24: I lived all over the world.

00:05:25: i had a great fortune of living in Singapore Switzerland India like All Over The World!

00:05:30: I'd always just say yes To Things and This First Chapter Was All About Learning Marketing Globally And These Big Consumer Package Goods Companies?

00:05:39: I think I was twenty nine or thirty years old and I became a president at J&J.

00:05:45: I ran our biggest division there, Our Baby Care Division at J & J And...I thought i'd made it!

00:05:52: Yeah..i've made

00:05:53: it!!

00:05:53: I'm young like....and then Silicon Valley started to brew and I was like holy cow the world's changing and I just kind of stopped all basically resigned and moved out here into the Bay Area and joined my first sort of private equity backed company, which is called Ancestry.

00:06:13: Which I'm sure you know?

00:06:14: And that started in the second chapter with my career this sort of tech and Silicon Valley sort of chapter of my career.

00:06:22: We created this entire movement around consumer genetics and DNA testing.

00:06:28: It was all under this insight That if we all knew where were came from... ...we would realize they are much more similar than different.

00:06:35: And it was this really powerful mission that just exploded, the brand and company as a storytelling platform.

00:06:44: It got huge right?

00:06:45: I don't know if you did genetic testing in all of that but i definitely found out.

00:06:49: im finished!

00:06:52: Its quite amazing.

00:06:57: really embraced this technology because I think we all needed like sort of something that brought us together at the time.

00:07:05: It became a number one selling product on Amazon, it was just huge movement.

00:07:13: when you joined Ancestry how young is the company?

00:07:17: I'd say about fifteen years old but entering an entirely new chapter.

00:07:21: right cause its legacy kind Different target audience sort of genealogy based company and then we were trying to turn kind of family history.

00:07:32: And where you come into this movement in America that really hit the cultural zeitgeist and sort of reinvented a brand.

00:07:38: reinvigorated growth allowed us too than, um Then have transaction with the company.

00:07:44: I learned the power of ownership and wealth creation and I learn at The Power of equity versus salary build your family's future, which is what motivates me.

00:07:59: And so I just fell in love with everything.

00:08:01: Silicon Valley is you know?

00:08:05: Now at Chime we're a big disruptive financial technology company that's trying to show everyday people there's better way to bank.

00:08:15: the old banks are definitely not serving needs of most Americans and We've had a great run here, and it's been an amazing sort of place to be for the last four-and-a-half years.

00:08:27: I mean absolutely amazing in so much that double click into like...I want to go back a little bit too sure.

00:08:34: we're gonna touch on a few things.

00:08:35: i wanna start with what you were doing.

00:08:38: You talk about Procter & Gamma which was very beginning.

00:08:41: How interesting and fascinating to me that you set your sights on something, And you were so relentless in making it happen.

00:08:47: So smart about even looking at where he went to school.

00:08:49: all of this like how fascinating?

00:08:51: Then you made that happened.

00:08:52: what a great way To start your career with Johnson & Johnson Like you talked then around twenty nine thirty becoming president Of the division.

00:09:01: What was some things You learned About growing products and what It took to grow companies At That

00:09:08: level?

00:09:10: At scale, it's a different problem than when you're a bit smaller and at scale.

00:09:16: A couple of things happen.

00:09:18: number one people can get really comfortable right because your this big company with the big sort of moat around the business is going to be hard to break in on.

00:09:28: and so what are the biggest thing she have to watch?

00:09:30: that scale.

00:09:31: is this idea off comfort right?

00:09:33: I talk alot about sort of you know as brand scale.

00:09:39: You can get really sort of complacent that you're gonna be fine.

00:09:45: And the truth is, that's not the case as Silicon Valley started to bloom and direct-to-consumer business started come up which it was actually what many of your entrepreneurs are doing.

00:09:54: You know, we start to see all these new companies.

00:09:56: All of a sudden Start to break down the traditional bears To entry in CPG businesses.

00:10:02: right like you used.

00:10:03: it used to be impossible to launch A New consumer product.

00:10:05: Right because big companies Like PNG J&J Unilever Etc.

00:10:10: Had retail distribution Which you had to pay for and you have to do massive.

00:10:14: There's massive bears that feed through That.

00:10:16: There was no real like online shopping, right?

00:10:18: So retails where you went to shop.

00:10:20: And then to create brand awareness and tell people about it there's TV essentially in radio!

00:10:26: The cost of entering these markets is so high that if your an entrepreneur trying to launch a new laundry detergent or baby diaper brand It will be very hard to penetrate.

00:10:40: I think the biggest thing that I learned at scale, because it was right in the precipice of this direct-to-consumer revolution.

00:10:46: Was you just cannot be satisfied with a status quo?

00:10:50: You've got to be able to adjust and really not get too comfortable—that's sort number one!

00:10:56: Number two... The thing that is crippling for big companies which we have to undo to keep growth going is eliminate bureaucracy.

00:11:04: Like…I'm very cognizant about even today.

00:11:08: where am i like between me and the kind of most junior person in New York, how many levels are there?

00:11:13: You know.

00:11:14: Because otherwise information just takes too long to flow both up and down And you can get very bureaucratic.

00:11:20: There's meetings for meeting and it gets overly slow.

00:11:25: These small companies are coming in.

00:11:28: They disrupt these large companies when they're not even looking at this point.

00:11:31: So speed of decision making becomes really important.

00:11:37: And then third, you have to lean into what advantages you have at scale.

00:11:40: The biggest advantage that you have it's scale is the ability just really put your muscle behind new innovation right?

00:11:47: So we've got the R&D at scale and all of our best scientists are at scale.

00:11:52: We've got relationships with regulators who can launch things that could be disruptive but also use their muscles for putting all those capital and human talent in innovation and really push that out using your distribution, marketing muzzle as much possible.

00:12:11: So a little bit of it is undoing some challenges at scale.

00:12:15: And the power of scale which is talent The ability to go market with force.

00:12:24: These are things being important for years in industry

00:12:27: That makes so much sense.

00:12:28: And it's something that you kind of see when you think about these like legacy companies, the how easy is to get comfortable in that right?

00:12:35: So many resources and It feels like You have everything all together and it's easy to stay comfortable there.

00:12:41: With your entry point in Johnson & Johnson then moving into becoming over time...that was a journey Right There To Get To President Of That Division.

00:12:50: What what was that journey?

00:12:52: Like, how do you kind of move stage over stage until you reach that level.

00:12:58: Look, well I entered J&J already at a pretty senior level.

00:13:01: I was running worldwide marketing there.

00:13:02: so i had this crazy four billion dollar budget...I mean it was an insane opportunity which I was so fortunate.

00:13:11: Infinity budgets right?

00:13:12: But that doesn't mean you're gonna grow as we talked about!

00:13:14: So um It was uh really amazing experience and Really for me it was after running sort of a function I was missing running a P&L, like actually having the end-to-end ownership of a business.

00:13:29: In any company and these big companies they tend to be matrixed organizations so you have geographic or divisional P& L ownership.

00:13:38: And then we had this horizontal functions that are supporting A lot of these areas.

00:13:44: So for me it's natural kind move.

00:13:47: It would go back if i want continue to grow at these big companies.

00:13:52: I had to go back into P&L ownership after running a function and that's the very natural career path in all of this company

00:13:59: That makes so much sense.

00:14:01: Okay, and then hearing this rise of what's happening in Silicon Valley And also just understanding your natural fire that feels like it's also something that has been innate with you.

00:14:09: the The fact that you kind of have been this relentless person You're gonna get after going to go do it?

00:14:29: something pretty incredible in the market and just revolutionizing a space, I can see the excitement around that.

00:14:35: And I'm curious what was it about Chime?

00:14:40: That had you buy-in all the way where your like.

00:14:43: I need to be apart of this.

00:14:44: To your point he talked little bit about equity different kind systems.

00:14:48: things really matter too.

00:14:49: personally What wasn't made me say?

00:14:51: This is why wanna spend my time.

00:14:54: It's great question.

00:14:55: well look You reach a certain point in your career where you want to use what you're good at for Good In The World, and that really happened.

00:15:08: Ancestry showed me the power of when you can create a positive brand platform... ...you can really create movement because people wanna get behind things constructive or positive for our world, you know?

00:15:25: And at Ancestry it was when we had launched the genetic testing and really put that on the road.

00:15:31: It's this moment where America is getting very divided.

00:15:35: We thought man like...we can stay above all of politics.

00:15:39: This isn't a political statement.

00:15:41: Doesn't everyone just want to be closer together like isn't being together a good thing?

00:15:45: it doesn't matter who you are really leaned into that.

00:15:49: And when I, and then i went to Walgreens Boots for three or four years as one hundred billion dollar business by thousands of people an ended up having the lead at this is worth over two years in the UK US through covid which was dislike such emission driven powerful moment for me leading retail pharmacy through what the craziest time of our generation.

00:16:09: I have so many war stories we can talk about on that one as well, but then when i saw Chime...I was like wow it started with meeting The Founder!

00:16:17: We had these amazing co-founders who believe so deeply in our mission of unlocking financial progress for everyday Americans.

00:16:24: they are.

00:16:26: CEO has this personal story where someone took a chance on him and actually funded his high school education just based off the kindness and goodness of someone who took a chance on him, believed in him.

00:16:44: And when you hear the authenticity of a founder and why the company was set up.

00:16:52: You get absorbed by that.

00:16:54: There's too many brands and companies I feel are transactional where purpose isn't actually guiding the business model.

00:17:05: And for our founder, Chris it was a truly amazing story.

00:17:09: so that's number one.

00:17:11: Number two is obviously there has to be... So they're asking me mission alignment and that was number one!

00:17:16: Number two you have to believe here.

00:17:20: just because your company had great missions doesn't mean I can relate myself as first generation immigrant like yes i wish my family had time.

00:17:30: The second thing is, there's an addressable market here.

00:17:32: Can you actually build and economically viable company?

00:17:36: And I mean what an unbelievable addressable markets chime has right?

00:17:40: There are two hundred million people in America that live paycheck to paycheck which by the way does not mean your poor.

00:17:47: You can make up to one hundred fifty thousand dollars In a lot of cities in this country Still have no left between those two week pay cycles.

00:17:55: And i saw this unbelievable opportunity had begun telling its story, but you know it had not quite matured all the way yet.

00:18:05: We have this amazing CMO here before me.

00:18:08: she's actually almost like a co-founder.

00:18:10: She was like first five employees of the company And her and I just vibed on what this next chapter needed.

00:18:17: Yeah, it was like.

00:18:17: yeah i think that can be your successor!

00:18:19: We could really take Chime to the next level go from challenger to leadership brand... ...and saw an amazing opportunity for me to grow it in lots of low-hanging fruit that i knew i would pick and ripen over time.

00:18:33: And then lastly, it was our culture.

00:18:37: We are a company that really values things like transparency and radical candor.

00:18:45: we look at feedback as sort of the gift I looked for these companies where you don't have to put on face You can be yourself.

00:18:54: People see feedback both constructive and positive As a gift.

00:19:00: It's important me work in place.

00:19:03: People can just be them full selves.

00:19:05: They can say what they need to say kindly and respectfully, but they could say that I was absorbed by the people who met me.

00:19:12: this day is something i very much care about.

00:19:15: It's so amazing, and it is also so amazing to hear the founder story as well.

00:19:20: And makes a lot of sense when you see that content or the cohesiveness across campaigns messaging mission all make sense rooted in something so real even if don't have exact words put behind someone on outside.

00:19:35: looking at anyone seeing this brand feels like there's depth here.

00:19:39: There is real meaning here, so it's cool to hear from your lens as well.

00:19:45: You know what else is fascinating when you talk about What Chime has been able to accomplish and being the fastest growing banking service in America right now which is such a huge statement.

00:19:55: When we look at these legacy banks I think that when i was an elementary how they were already priming us To be with Bank of America or whatever bank And you guys can come In here?

00:20:07: or in terms of for consumers and so I'm like.

00:20:13: What incredible strides have been made in such a short period of time for this industry?

00:20:18: It is it's just testament to your point, the addressable market.

00:20:22: To The mission ,the heart .The purpose and also the team you know.

00:20:27: And when I look at what chime has been able to do even bringing superstars like yourself This Is something that i also Look At seems Like its Also part Of the culture Bringing Superstars.

00:20:36: You When Have A Mission That Big You Gotta Cultivate & Also Bring In Superstars.

00:20:40: So For You Being at the helm of marketing and growth for CHIME, I'd be fascinated to understand what that looks like in terms of bringing other superstars into your team.

00:20:54: And how do you navigate some of the egos?

00:20:57: I think a team sometimes is sports teams.

00:21:01: You have these superstars who know what they can bring to the table but it's still about the collective.

00:21:07: so how did you navigate?

00:21:09: kind?

00:21:11: Well, you probably know this as well.

00:21:12: As anyone no one does this alone and You know we're really proud of it.

00:21:17: We're opening more accounts than Anyone in America now More Than Bank Of America Chase Wells Fargo.

00:21:22: It's a pretty amazing place to be but it comes down To the team around you And I'm Really fortunate i've been able to recruit what?

00:21:31: I might be biased, but it's the best marketing leadership team in-in... In the country.

00:21:36: And you know we've got real superstars.

00:21:38: all three of my direct reports are former CMOs and their own right?

00:21:42: It's a lot

00:21:42: that.. That's why i'm like

00:21:45: question!

00:21:46: I am okay yeah

00:21:48: Yeah exactly The key is as leader.

00:21:52: All of my teammates can do their job better than I could.

00:21:56: We have ahead brand and creative I mean, run circles around me and what he does.

00:22:03: Our head of growth marketing was the guy who brought Dollar Shave Club to the world before it got sold to Unilever.

00:22:09: Amazing!

00:22:11: My Head Of Product Marketing is this amazing leader who has scaled companies... Was The GoPro like a marketing leader when they were having its A-Day?

00:22:20: And i've gotta Chief of Staff.

00:22:22: Who's This Amazing Woman Who Just Done So Much In The Industry With Companies Like Twitter etc.

00:22:29: I've been able to assemble a team of people who are all better at their jobs than me.

00:22:33: That's the first thing and i think that's where you gotta start.

00:22:37: The second is also, we have ambidextrous leaders So each one could probably do others' job And thats really important because You don't want teams like never shall like lanes cross, you know.

00:22:58: And so when we have leadership meetings they're animated.

00:23:01: their debates right?

00:23:02: They are people challenging each other and that's really important to me because I think natural tension and challenge is what um...really makes things better.

00:23:12: none of us has all the ideas.

00:23:15: When we get pushed those ideas gets more formed and powerful.

00:23:21: And then lastly, when you have a team like this.

00:23:23: You have to invest in the team Like great teams and culture don't happen by accident.

00:23:30: So I'm pretty religious about for the last four or four-and-a-half years that i've been here We've being taking my leadership Team off site every quarter For two days?

00:23:40: I just liked shut it all down.

00:23:41: we're going offsite for Two Days and we actually hire A coach and someone comes in, I'm a huge fan of this book called The Five Dysfunctions Of A Team.

00:23:51: And it really starts with the idea of trust and vulnerability-based trust like if you can have vulnerability on your team... ...I think that you could get through anything good days bad days If its truly authentic and vulnerable.

00:24:05: So we spent time.

00:24:06: We know how each other grew up!

00:24:07: We knew..we know the biggest challenges are lives Like my team knows the darkest Moments of my life growing up, you know with with my mom and my dad.

00:24:17: And every family has its You-know things right?

00:24:21: So we know that about each other.

00:24:23: um and When you can develop back kind of depth of relationship and then work towards a common goal And you focus on that Every quarter for four years Right It's a really powerful way to keep the team gelled together and running down The same path to climb the right same mountain, and it's a really important part of how I lead is bringing together superstars but then really cultivating.

00:24:51: It has a team not as a group of individuals.

00:24:54: It's so,

00:24:57: so powerful what you just said and that whole kind of digging into the humans that are all building this mission together.

00:25:06: I love that idea of these off-sites where it's not only about strategy in What Are We Doing but also like digging into getting to know each other really well because at The End Of The Day its a collective of humans bringing us to life.

00:25:19: So i think thats pretty phenomenal.

00:25:21: One another question on.

00:25:24: I would love to hear a little bit more on your leadership philosophy and style.

00:25:28: Like what does, you know when you're looking at targets whether if it's quarterly or for the year how do you think about leading your team?

00:25:36: Obviously understanding some of the things that you mentioned about off-sites Or um.

00:25:40: You know How you think About challenging each other And how even Think about The type Of team members That you bring in.

00:25:45: but What else is really important To you When there are Really big Targets Um To help get Your Team There?

00:25:53: Well a couple of things.

00:25:55: if you ask my team probably the most annoying thing about working with me is that I My team will tell you that.

00:26:01: I have a bit of a reality distortion field, right?

00:26:03: Like I'll be like hey we just dream up something and they're like We can do that.

00:26:08: And there's this like almost like this idea manifesting realities That people didn't even think was possible.

00:26:16: but when you're doing hard Things And you are scaling in an industry that is being so not available to challenge your brands like Chime.

00:26:28: You have to be able to dream big and be able articulate that, get people to believe they can do impossible

00:26:37: things.".

00:26:37: That's hard because I'll be relentless on it right?

00:26:40: We've got to do by this date!

00:26:44: I don't even think we thought were possible.

00:26:50: But to make that work, i'll go to my second thing which is then as a leader you can just be like at the top of the mountain yelling orders... You have to be willing to chew glass yourself right?

00:27:00: ...you have to being willing get in the trenches Get deep Work The Hours Right!

00:27:06: You cant' just been an ivory tower shouting orders.

00:27:09: if your gonna set distorted reality sort of mountains to climb for your team, you then have to be willing go on the climb.

00:27:17: You have to really do hard things like I always talk about.

00:27:22: chewing glass is something this grit and willingness take pain has been starting from leader first.

00:27:30: my leaders have exemplified that as well.

00:27:32: so look at people who are willing work through hard thing's resilience.

00:27:38: And then the third thing that we look for and is really key to my leadership style, I use this word earlier called radical candor which a well-known concept.

00:27:48: Essentially it's having high directness with high empathy.

00:27:53: It's an idea so many companies are thinking something but they don't say it When it gets left unsaid.

00:28:05: you can only manage what i know.

00:28:08: And so it's this idea of just, we have to say on our leadership team.

00:28:11: Do we say?

00:28:12: Just say the thing you know.

00:28:14: and So we have these sort of norms that we follow.

00:28:17: It's a really important concept To me That I'll give people feedback right like after meeting.

00:28:23: i'll pull them aside and be Like hey!That was Really good You could do This.

00:28:26: I mean Everyone knows that sometimes I hold People.

00:28:28: Hey can you stay back for A second?

00:28:30: Its immediate Feedback its constant.

00:28:32: Im not big believer in These ceremonies of mid-year and year ends, they're fine.

00:28:37: You need to do them but you shouldn't wait till then people's nothing there by that point should be a surprise.

00:28:41: so we have this continuous feedback loop I really try to instill between climbing these mountains totally devoid reality being willing to chew glass and really do the hard things And then me able say like being able give feedback which helps us grow.

00:29:02: It's it's a pretty like, you know We're all in and it's not for everyone but its I think what allows teams to achieve chief greatness.

00:29:11: Love it so much.

00:29:11: And then What would you say?

00:29:14: Like keeps you up at night.

00:29:16: as

00:29:16: You Know the Chief Growth Officer with All The you know ambition everything that you all are building over there like what is it That Keeps you Up At Night?

00:29:25: yeah look it's another thing that makes it hard To work For me sometimes because now i'm A first-generation Immigrant.

00:29:31: Yep, we have nothing my whole life.

00:29:34: I just...I literally wake up every day like- I wake up at home and am like how do i live here?

00:29:39: And you know it's like..it could all be taken away from me!

00:29:42: I don't know, just think it's going to be in me forever.

00:29:52: And obviously i'm getting more comfortable with who I am and the imposter syndrome slowly starts to wither away but its never gonna go way fully!

00:30:01: So I wake up every day thinking what are we not doing right now?

00:30:06: Like where our vulnerabilities...I learned a lot.

00:30:09: part of my DNA being first generation immigrant is working on these legacy companies that I've seen just get disrupted, right?

00:30:20: Over and over again.

00:30:21: And we cannot rest... We opened an office in San Francisco a few years ago.

00:30:29: It was this beautiful office at the FIDEI which is sort of like enough to...we had a lot growth ambitions but knew it needed more space.

00:30:35: so we opened this office!

00:30:37: And i'll never forget.. I walked into the first day when we have just opened it.

00:30:43: I'm really worried about this.

00:30:44: He goes why is like, i feel Like people will think we've made it.

00:30:47: you know and that's the thing That worries me The most Is our team feeling overly comfortable.

00:30:55: You Know like We've Made It And I just Think You Can Never Truly Feel That Way.

00:30:59: You can Be Proud!

00:31:01: You Can Celebrate But You You Can't Feel Like You'Ve Made It Because The Second You Get There Someone'S Gonna Take Your Lunch And You Have To be Really Careful

00:31:09: Totally, and that's something you've also experienced having been at these massive companies seeing it.

00:31:15: Now its in-you!

00:31:16: You live it which is so amazing.

00:31:18: Okay I want to jump into some of the tactical conversations around economics of growing a sustainable business.

00:31:28: What does it take, what are people not thinking about?

00:31:30: How should young founders entrepreneurs who have products you know how should they be thinking about the economics?

00:31:37: and I think with something like Sixty Day Hustle or General Founders that get to speak quite often...I think a lot times its easy to believe so much in your mission and purpose but if the economics aren't solid underneath doesn't mean.

00:31:55: So I'd love to hear from you.

00:31:57: You know, what do you think is important for founders too?

00:32:01: No and how should they be thinking about sustainable growth?

00:32:05: Yeah well let's geek out a little bit on this.

00:32:09: This will be fun And yeah lets just as practical as possible Because that's probably what people need in the world.

00:32:18: The first thing and I know this is gonna sound simple, but it's sort of do you know who?

00:32:23: You're building for.

00:32:24: Who are you creating your product for?

00:32:26: And the first thing you have to check because his their product market fit, you know i'll get to economics in a second.

00:32:32: yeah But you

00:32:33: have two.

00:32:34: First and foremost understand Is the thing is that think you've invented the thing you put out on the world uh-huh the product you created It going too.

00:32:43: truly.

00:32:45: um Be differentiated and create sort of the experience that you want for whoever your target audience is.

00:32:51: a lot Of people sort of go into starting to sell The product really hard before they even know there's product market fade.

00:32:58: And one thing, you know in software businesses then You learn in businesses.

00:33:01: That are you know pixels versus hard goods Is that?

00:33:06: You've learned lots of beta tests loss about the test Your constantly optimizing code and the product until it's honed and then you scale.

00:33:13: we actually do alpha beta then we do general availability.

00:33:17: We call that a GA, and I think that's true for any business.

00:33:20: um have you perfected the recipe?

00:33:22: Have you sort of?

00:33:23: is the product experience when you put that skincare cream on like isn't giving you the feel that you want?

00:33:32: And have you obsessed over getting that feedback early in often from your consumer really dialed-in the product?

00:33:39: i think thats very first thing because You could have all the ideas in the world to sort of scale and even if your go-to market strategy is great, eventually you're not going to get repeat customers.

00:33:49: Your'e not gonna get a regeneration business.

00:33:53: You might sell it for first time but its not gonna happen second time.

00:33:56: at P&G we used call this the Second Moment Of Truth.

00:33:59: The First moment was when people choose their product which you can do with flashy marketing, good packaging.

00:34:07: But the second moment of truth was did it actually do that thing?

00:34:10: You said and didn't actually work better than other products.

00:34:14: And you've got to get that second moment-of-truth really dialed in so people know for sure this is still living a promise.

00:34:23: Once you have that move on thinking about all the economics out there In few ways.

00:34:30: The first things we don't think much.

00:34:33: What is the customer acquisition cost of my product, right?

00:34:37: And I'll just use simple math.

00:34:38: Let's say you were making a...I don't know-a food product.

00:34:41: let's just say a drink of some sort because i know you guys have lots of food entrepreneurs on your business that I met.

00:34:48: so really cool entrepreneurs and products.

00:34:50: um let's say You're launching a little.

00:34:52: uh a drink.

00:34:53: Um lets call it an energy drink.

00:34:55: okay Very crowded space.

00:34:57: but let's Say you've nailed The Product Right!

00:35:01: The product market if It Is Clear.

00:35:04: You've talked to consumers, they like it better than Monster and Celsius is some unique thing about that people love.

00:35:10: Let's say you nailed that.

00:35:11: the next question Is just because you've nailed It doesn't mean your acquisition economics are gonna be okay.

00:35:16: So let's see if starts costing.

00:35:18: do start running some tests on meta or Google Or various platforms?

00:35:22: Let's Say you started want to acquire a People to come through website And try out If its costing you five dollars to acquire a customer, meaning you're paying two dollars for click.

00:35:34: They come through your website.

00:35:36: and now the conversion rate.

00:35:37: not everyone's gonna convert right?

00:35:39: So by the time you get your conversion rates Your net acquisition cost between Click & Conversion is five dollars but your product costs six dollars because You added all these funky ingredients To make it amazing.

00:35:52: well Now you are losing A dollar in every transaction And haven't even taken fulfillment Costs.

00:35:57: The next thing people gotta do before you scale big time is go, can I get those customer acquisition costs to a place where I could make enough margin on my business that I can actually fuel growth?

00:36:09: Because as you know as the business owner, margin is the gross margin.

00:36:15: The price you sell it at minus the cost you make it at is how you fuel... You use those dollars then to fund acquisition and marketing costs.

00:36:24: Those marketing costs then have to come in at a price where you don't lose money on the transaction.

00:36:30: I know it sounds obvious, but too many entrepreneurs start the acquisition engine without doing that small scale testing learning optimizing their acquisition costs right?

00:36:40: Maybe this creative unit will have higher click-through rate which would lower my acquisition cost.

00:36:45: or maybe the creative is fine and it's driving click-throughs, but my whole onboarding I'm making getting my payment too hard.

00:36:52: You know?

00:36:52: I don't understand what the product is being sold when i clicked that... When I click the ad.

00:36:56: so you've got to optimize What we call that funnel perfectly right before you go to scale So kind of like.

00:37:03: you want your product Right!

00:37:04: You want your acquisition costs right as well.

00:37:06: And you gotta do all these things in sort Of a smaller level Before you sort of scale and sort of lose Your shirt and you realize It Too late.

00:37:15: There's that acquisition cost side of it, which is really important.

00:37:18: And then the last thing you know your organic strategy.

00:37:22: so a lot people think about sort-of product and paid acquisition.

00:37:26: right because Google Meta Tiktok can run paid ads in an.

00:37:30: make that happen but let say got those right.

00:37:33: The third leg great businesses as they have organic growth not just paid growth and organic growth.

00:37:39: this things like Hey, when you're launching a product do have a referral program?

00:37:42: Right.

00:37:42: If you have such great product can you turn... A big part by the way Chime.

00:37:47: fifty percent of our acquisitions come from organic growth.

00:37:49: they don't come for paid-growth.

00:37:50: They come people joining Chime and then they refer other members to get a referral bonus.

00:37:56: That referral bonus is cheaper than any pay that I could do And it's actually more effective because its coming form friend not from brand.

00:38:03: So Do People Have Organic Growth Strategy.

00:38:06: so if i'm launching this energy drink Can I like, do I have a CRM database of everyone who's bought it?

00:38:14: And can I run our referral program quickly to them and say hey.

00:38:17: I'll give you five bucks for every...I'm just making up that number For Every Person You Refer.

00:38:22: Do i Have A Social Media Strategy Where I Get Attention And That Attention Can Turn Into Clicks To My Website?

00:38:31: Is My Social Media Shoppable Commerce Right?

00:38:34: So There'S These Sort Of Like Organic Social organic growth strategies like referrals and things like that.

00:38:40: That is the third leg of a stool, but I think a lot people don't think about.

00:38:44: so have a great product.

00:38:46: win that second moment-of-truth.

00:38:49: make sure you've dialed in your end to an acquisition costs and it's leaving with enough gross margin or EBITDA.

00:38:56: really run the business.

00:38:58: continue to drive growth because if we do not have money left over can reinvest into this.

00:39:04: Do you have organic growth leavers to really scale the business even without paid marketing so that your not entirely reliant on ad platforms?

00:39:14: Amazing.

00:39:14: Dropping all of the gems, okay I've a question for you.

00:39:18: how do think about founders who are hearing this and is such great advice?

00:39:25: How should they be thinking?

00:39:27: what is success versus not in terms of the cost.

00:39:32: Understanding.

00:39:33: yes, you have to have healthy margins and you need a protect all that.

00:39:37: but when you kind look at I'm spending this to acquire customer and new but know my lifetime value's gonna mean X what's worth it?

00:39:44: How do you kinda look these...

00:39:47: Okay so we're really geeking out now yeah!

00:39:49: So i think alot people early days look just the P&L like here are my revenue heres my sales Here's my cost, here is my profit or loss.

00:39:59: Which is good.

00:40:00: you need to keep an eye on that.

00:40:01: but what really matters in the early days are unit economics.

00:40:05: so every unit I sell am making enough margin there and thats kind of where i was going with this second point.

00:40:13: it often overlooked like any entrepreneur that im looking at investing because i do a lot.

00:40:18: Do I think that this person knows their unit economics inside out?

00:40:24: Anyone can read a P&L and say, This is my revenue.

00:40:26: This are costs in my profit.

00:40:29: Can you break

00:40:30: down the units of economics for those watching?

00:40:33: Pardon me!

00:40:33: Can you breakdown unit economics or

00:40:36: essentially my cost of producing a product versus my cost to acquiring a customer from the products?

00:40:42: right it's in the simplest terms, that's what it is.

00:40:46: And it's not at the macro level, It's at the unit levels.

00:40:50: so for every unit of a drink I sell right?

00:40:53: An energy drinks I sell What does my cost to acquire that customer?

00:40:58: and if its If Its Not Gonna Work Is Just It's Not Gonna Scale.

00:41:02: Like You Can't Scale Negative Unit Economics Right.

00:41:05: That's The Recipe For Bankruptcy.

00:41:06: So Thats Sort Of Unit Economics Great.

00:41:09: Now you made A Really Good Point About Lifetime Value.

00:41:12: So the next element, once you've nailed that of unit economics is You can grow.

00:41:42: adding revenue to you sort of automatically for the next two years.

00:41:46: and that could be maybe.

00:41:47: The energy drink is a subscription service, and you get I don't know ten drinks a month shipped And you have this sticky retention business like Of a subscription business.

00:41:58: That keeps going on right now.

00:41:59: that five dollars doesn't just generate the unit economics of one purchase.

00:42:04: It generates the unit Economics of a year of recurring purchases.

00:42:08: and Now that five Dollars Just got You A hundred Dollars not just five dollars got you like six dollars, if you know what I mean.

00:42:15: And

00:42:15: so the real durable businesses have recurring revenue.

00:42:19: So you acquire once and you build recurring revenue?

00:42:23: Then look at one year two-year lifetime value of that customer that you acquired.

00:42:28: let's say it is a hundred dollars over a year now for five dollars or a twenty to one LTV to cap right?

00:42:36: A hundred to five dollars.

00:42:37: my LTVs are a hundred.

00:42:39: my customer acquisition costs five dollars.

00:42:40: I have a twenty to one LTV to cat ratio, which is obviously made up and crazy.

00:42:44: If you had that all in your business.

00:42:46: but That's sort of the way that you scale businesses for real.

00:42:52: so first get those unit economics right?

00:42:54: Don't get ahead yourself And then figure out how you turn that acquisition cost into A year of recurring revenue without You having to reacquire every time.

00:43:03: The problem with these CPG Businesses In my opinion you have to re-acquire at every purchase occasion, right?

00:43:10: So every time I need a new energy drink.

00:43:13: I had to re acquire customer again because there's so many purchased occasions in the year.

00:43:19: how do take them out of market and just stick into it as long is possible?

00:43:24: that really key to truly durable business over time is low cack.

00:43:29: good unit economics.

00:43:30: recurring revenue gives lifetime value.

00:43:32: Come on with the masterclass.

00:43:35: That's

00:43:35: so good, okay?

00:43:36: So you know when you kind of broke down a little bit You gave this arbitrary number like twenty to one and of course that's just like a fluffy number.

00:43:42: And yes well all invest.

00:43:44: if the company is doing that Well But what does it get baseline for someone to be kind of?

00:43:48: I Know their companies vary but i'm Just curious If there's Like A baseline This People Should Be Thinking Of.

00:43:53: Companies vary and I could get really geeky here with you, but which i won't.

00:43:58: But um look in businesses that.

00:44:00: I Look at either investing in or just You know companies that?

00:44:05: I lead are participating.

00:44:07: look a three to three Or four-to-one ltv.

00:44:09: the cat is a world class cat.

00:44:11: ltv The cat like.

00:44:12: if you can get Three times two four Times your the revenue from every dollar you spent to acquire you're gonna have enough margin room to then take that money and keep acquiring more customers.

00:44:27: If you have anything much lower than that, it's tough.

00:44:29: now of course a lot of this depends on the dollar margin of a product.

00:44:35: what your balance sheet looks like.

00:44:36: I'm not gonna get into all that but in simple terms if

00:44:47: Amazing.

00:44:47: Okay, so now for companies that are you know That are just starting out maybe it's a you know A solo founder doing on their own?

00:44:54: Maybe they start You know kind of getting Their first team members one two people.

00:44:59: what do you think is most important when they're thinking about Marketing and all these economics we were talking About where should be putting the focus first?

00:45:07: Where Should They Be Obsessing?

00:45:09: Got it.

00:45:09: So let's say they've got their sort of Their product dialed in and they know They've got a winner on their hands, and then moving to sort of the marketing phase Where if they should be obsessing is like not trying To scale all the ad platforms at once right?

00:45:24: Like you gotta think And I ii thing that happens Is people start thinking about like brand awareness Right away and It's tough like how do You break through with real brand Awareness right away?

00:45:37: so The way I like to think about it is the next place you go, as you're going through some of these ad platforms.

00:45:42: And let's take a Facebook or an Instagram and take one and dial in right?

00:45:52: To really get this paid algorithms working for you... You need so many things that are right!

00:45:59: Like the ad unit, the actual creative that your using on this what we call scroll thumb-stopping power, right?

00:46:06: Or scroll stopping power.

00:46:07: Like people actually have to stop on your ad for a second and then not only do they need you stopped but they need to click And then they need clicking land onto some kind of web page or yours.

00:46:18: Then make sure that the webpage if it drives clicks it converts people into purchase.

00:46:23: So doing this at five ad platforms are key is focus.

00:46:28: I know everyone wants go fast.

00:46:31: It's like, no.

00:46:33: We have a saying in marketing at China is go slow.

00:46:36: to go fast and this is the time to go slow-to-go fast dialing the product then dial in your acquisition find a platform that works.

00:46:46: if it's not working move to the next one.

00:46:48: but don't try to scale five platforms at once And them Like I said currently.

00:46:52: build Your social media an organic growth engine right because you know If You can really get That scaling and you need less emphasis on paid your cat gets lower, right?

00:47:02: So focus on one platform at a time.

00:47:05: Dial it in optimize that purchase funnel as much as you can and then move into... And parallel try to build some organic growth and really get that engine going as well.

00:47:16: Amazing this is so juicy!

00:47:18: It's so good and I'm so excited for people to be able to get this downloaded so actionable.

00:47:25: Obviously, you have

00:47:27: not

00:47:27: only been apart with Chime and the team in Sixty Day Hustle and everything we're doing but also a guest judge.

00:47:35: You've watched the contestants' campaigns and given them feedback while they are growing as well quickly.

00:47:44: when you look at, aside from the economics which we've definitely done such a fantastic job diving into.

00:47:51: When you think about I don't want to invest in this one so I wanna be part of his person's growth journey.

00:47:56: what are things that he looks

00:47:58: like?

00:47:59: A few thing and it is no surprise.

00:48:01: some of these things have been mentioned.

00:48:02: The first thing is sort of pain tolerance.

00:48:05: yeah come on now

00:48:09: I'm just gonna say again chew glass like the resilience and The pain tolerance you need to start a business or scale of business is So high, Like You cannot be I would not invest in someone optimizing for comfort.

00:48:25: I'm Not saying that's good Or bad?

00:48:26: I'm not making A judgment call.

00:48:27: i'm just saying from me To invest.

00:48:29: yep on Someone who'S gonna Be like.

00:48:31: Just Demonstrated to Me That They have Deep Pain Tolerance And Almost Seek pain, you know like he's kind of people I can't describe these people.

00:48:40: He just no Give it to me give a to me hard Like.

00:48:44: I just want it like I wanna really tough go at this You know.

00:48:48: so that's number one?

00:48:49: You cannot teach that in my opinion.

00:48:50: Yeah, I think that comes from life experiences and It's there.

00:48:54: That's my part number one.

00:48:56: And by the way The reason i say that also is like In these early days you don't Really Know that much.

00:49:01: the only thing you Can assess as the founder right and So first and foremost your investing in the Founder.

00:49:06: The second thing then is, like I said do you know your numbers?

00:49:10: Like Do You Know Your Numbers Inside Out Left Backwards.

00:49:14: If i can do analysis on your business in thirty minutes that are don't know inside and out by the time get in front of a judge or me an investor...I just cant invest.

00:49:26: someone has to have mastery over their math.

00:49:30: You know, building a brand is math and magic.

00:49:33: And that math part really matters.

00:49:36: I love that!

00:49:37: That's such a moment

00:49:38: in my head.

00:49:39: It was

00:49:40: so real.

00:49:41: Absolutely.

00:49:42: The third thing i look at just the vision or dream.

00:49:47: are they thinking big?

00:49:49: Or if you're an investor you want outsized returns, right?

00:50:02: And so for me personally I'm going to look for things that are gonna give out-sized returns with a dream.

00:50:07: That is maybe hard to achieve but has a lot of TAM or a lot potential and You've got to look at because A great idea in small market it's still gonna be a small business.

00:50:18: So you have to really careful

00:50:21: Amazing.

00:50:21: I love it, i feel like we bird side zoomed in and went real deep with the numbers.

00:50:25: It has been such a phenomenal conversation!

00:50:28: Zoom back out into your mindset as CMO or growth leader at Chime As you think about growth.

00:50:38: My question is around entertainment.

00:50:41: You are, you guys have really done such a phenomenal job at going from being this young company that then has grown and is taking over this industry.

00:50:51: And now becoming a culture brand.

00:50:53: And you really play in entertainment I would say?

00:50:56: Obviously your partners with us on Sixty Day Hustle which as a TV show or main streamer.

00:51:01: there's all sorts of things around entertainment.

00:51:05: important entertainment is for you as you look at your strategy of reaching people, kind of staying relevant in conversation and culture.

00:51:14: What's how important?

00:51:15: Is that for you?

00:51:16: Look it's where it sat People.

00:51:19: the honest truth this people hate ads.

00:51:21: they hate.

00:51:22: They hate like looking at advertising.

00:51:24: I mean It works because it makes people aware of who you are And what do.

00:51:28: but that's not what creates connection right?

00:51:30: yeah brands today have to be sort.

00:51:35: Let me start one step back.

00:51:37: The currency for today, and the hardest thing to get is attention.

00:51:40: Attention is sort of a new hack in many ways.

00:51:44: And...the only way you can get attention through entertainment You have to entertain to get attention otherwise it gets skipped.

00:51:56: So brands in many ways now are basically entertainment platforms.

00:52:00: They're streaming platforms.

00:52:01: there I talked about, i talk to our brand team as if we were like you.

00:52:04: guys are editors of a weekly magazine back in the day or your content head on a streaming platform and your job is actually create hits constant hit right?

00:52:16: And that's essentially what we think it.

00:52:19: You know, partnering with properties like yours which again congratulations and all the success is a huge part of sort.

00:52:27: that's one part entertainment where you embed into pre-distributed properties.

00:52:34: Where if feel there are brand alignment.

00:52:36: so thats one way to do it.

00:52:38: The second thing is original programming, so we are deep in Hollywood right now piloting some shows.

00:52:44: It was a huge part of how we built the ancestry brand.

00:52:47: I mean We had shows that were nominated for Emmys like.

00:52:49: it's a pretty amazing way to build a brand and So i deeply believe in Original Programming That then gets distributed?

00:52:56: How do you think about your own social media presence as appointment viewing and entertainment, right?

00:53:14: So we have shows.

00:53:16: We had this in-house studio called In the Green Studios And we have show like Mama I Made It

00:53:21: ballin' on a party.

00:53:22: Okay by the way!

00:53:22: Yeah it's cool Right then we take like celebs Then put them with their mom and talk about their progress stories and launch new episode.

00:53:29: Right so...In many ways..we've got our channel with streaming.

00:53:33: We're like a network, putting out new show.

00:53:37: So you've got to think about.

00:53:38: entertainment is the key I think to drive relevance in brand building and get attention.

00:53:46: Don't get me wrong TV still plays role but it's much more transactional.

00:53:51: But to get relevant connection And truly getting deep understanding of your brand story Entertainment where its at That.

00:54:02: why growing so much as an industry?

00:54:04: Amazing.

00:54:05: Well, Monique I have to say this has been... such an amazing conversation.

00:54:09: I'm so grateful that we had this time together to talk through all of this, you are a wealth of knowledge and i really appreciate you sharing that.

00:54:18: yes it's conversations together but i know the impact that will have on so many founders who have a dream ,who have mission .

00:54:24: Who have that resilience in that fire in them But maybe don't have The knowledge how they should be thinking about the unit economics.

00:54:31: And thank-you for sharing your knowledge.

00:54:33: It means so much Very excited for all that you guys are doing at CHIME and All That We're Doing Together.

00:54:43: Thank you so much for this awesome conversation.

00:54:45: I can guarantee there will be many more conversations and we'll find other ways to share a lot of this knowledge because they're so much in you that entrepreneurs can really learn from, So thanks so much.

00:54:55: Let's do it Michelle.

00:54:56: We'll keep doing this together.

00:54:57: And uh Thanks for all your partnership with Chime.

00:54:59: You guys have been real pleasure To work With.

00:55:01: i think you truly understand brand integration In A way That is authentic & Real.

00:55:09: I love it,

00:55:13: beautiful.

00:55:14: Thank you so much for...